amen.

Patrick, I could not agree more. In fact, I was working on a post earlier that talked about the fact that people have a different intellectual and emotional connection to the iPhone, in fact many other Apple products than they do to other electronic gadgets. I didn’t understand it before I started using an iPhone but now that I do, I can’t really explain it well either. As my post below indicates, I’ve been setting up a Samsung Q1u premium and doing some work from it today (and a little posting as well). I like it a lot — I really do, but it doesn’t have the same “wow” that the iPhone has, orn the MacBook Air has. And it’s not about marketing or even about “style” it’s about a sense of enjoying the device that you’re using and the process of using it. That’s something that, without question, Apple has down better than any other company.

Fanboy.

Just kidding. I agree completely. You can market the living you know what out of something … but if it sucks, it sucks and people let you know about it. Look at how many movies per year are advertised to the ends of the Earth, come out and have a good first week – and they die off quickly. That’s what happens when something is all marketing hype. People quickly realize when something is shat and they make it known.

Now look at the iPhone. Launched in June of last year. Marketed like there was no tomorrow. Sold like mad the first week. And the second week. And continues to sell like mad. Again, if it sucked it would be long dead by now. Maybe not after one week, but surely after almost 10 months it would have tanked.

Hype only carries you so long. Marketing can only cover up the stink of a crap device for so long. Word of mouth, customer satisfaction, and the experience has to do the rest. And if you need more examples of the movie marketing proof –
check out wikipedia’s list of box office bombs. I think you’ll see what I mean about marketing can only do so much.

Gigli …

Fanboys!

I wish I could write as well as these fanboys write, but the truth is I just don’t have the talent or the desire. I’ll stick with FANBOYS for now, yeah real mature of me, but this site is beginning to smell like a @#%@#%#@$%.

I agree with you, in part. Of course, marketing alone is not enough. If you have a pile of garbage, then no amount of marketing will make it into a rose. However, I do think lack of marketing has significantly hurt Microsoft. Likewise, tremendous marketing has really boosted the iPhone. I look at it like this. You don’t need an offensive line to score a touchdown. But, no matter how good your quarterback is (with his laser rocket arm) you will not score many touchdowns without a solid offensive line protecting him. Marketing is like the offensive line. It gives the product the boost and support it needs to highlight what it can do. So, you are right that marketing alone does not justify the popularity of the iPhone, but I do thing it was a huge piece of the puzzle. Especially at the time immediately during and around the launch. No one knew what this thing could really do, and yet there were lines around the block. It takes great marketing to generate and maintain that kind of buzz and interest before you even have a product.

Doug

I still disagree Doug. Marketing is not a huge piece of the puzzle here, it’s minor. It’s been executed very well, sure – but what makes for the huge success is the superb design and function of the product itself. That’s why I think marketing must be so easy for Apple. You do not have to be an advertising genius to market the iPhone, far from it – because the product itself was light years ahead of the competition.

I honestly think the hype in this equation, the spin if you like, is often generated by Windows Mobile folks who cannot accept that Apple really did hand their asses to them when they launched the iPhone. So it’s glib to say ‘oh, that’s all about hype’ and so on. And it’s just not the case here. Again, I’d be interested to hear what sort of Windows Mobile ad or marketing campaign could make it compete that much better with the iPhone.

And as for lines around the block when nobody knew what it could do … People did have a very good idea of what it could do, because Jobs’ announcement of it at MacWorld showed it, doing what it does. We knew it had the huge touchscreen and hardware design like no other before it. We knew it had Multitouch like no other before it (and something everyone wants to copy). We knew it ran OSX, a real desktop class OS, like no other mobile device before it. We knew it had Visual Voicemail, the elegant UI etc. The lines around the block were not based on snake oil and hype, they were based on what the product does, what we knew it had going for it.

I have to agree with Patrick on this, the execution of the iPhone launch was superb, and the rumours and leaks about what a device that no one had gotten their hands on were orchestrated with clinical precision. Hence everyone wanted one! As for advertising/promoting windows mobile? I’ve been seeing more and more people with WinMo devices that don’t even know what they’ve got. More and more, WinMo devices get sold as the latest phone, not as a pocket PC, and the owners have no idea how to use them, or the ability to utilise the OS or native applications. It would take something like mass hypnosis, not marketing to increase WinMo’s market share, and probably, a hell of a lot of updates!

Peter, I agree with you on this one. I can’t tell you how many people I see using Windows Mobile (especially Treos) who have no idea. They think that is just the features of the phone.

MS is the only major player with a complete divorce of its OS and hardware and I think this is proving to be a huge mistake for them. Palm (when they use Palm OS), Blackberry and even the iPhone all control both the OS and handsets. This seems to be a much better business model.

Patrick, while I agree with many of your points, I really do think you are undervaluing the importance of good marketing.

Doug

The iPhone is a success – IMHO – for one reason: it works – right out of the box – period.

When the 3G one comes, I may be in depending on the depth of my affection for the Xperia X1 at the time.

But still, it’s nice to snap a pic and MMS it to my friends phones so they can quickly find me in a crowd….

I have to go with Doug on this one. It is a HUGE piece. Go look at how much Apple has spent on Marketing. And now lets consider that their huge product launches, getting into major fanboy/reviewers hands, and all the like is all MARKETING. They spent a lot of money to build the HYPE they built. It isnt just the millions and millions they have spent on very good TV ads… And continue to spend…

And yes, this silly argument that we should be able to tell you what should be in a WM ad now is just that, silly. Yeah, iPhone is a prettier/sllicker device right now. Here’s an ad for the much larger consumer market that you will never see buying the current iPhone(and there are millions that will NEVER pay $400 for a phone). Show the Q9 do IM, Mail, movies, music, gps, games. Now show its price and the price of the iPhone. Now show where on a map you can use At&t compared to where the Q9 can go(significant difference)… Now show the pricetag again… Throw in a little youth, business, and soe soccer moms, and you have a good campaign…

But yes, it is a great device, and that can be credited for some of the sales as well. But you are looking to Fanboy-ish if you argue that a successful product isn’t a TON about the marketing. Especially having anything to do with Apple….Especially in mainly the US market…

Birdsoft:
Read Brandon’s comment a few up from yours. Big marketing budget does not necessarily equal great product success, at all – and never has. As for getting it in the hands of fanboy reviewers, hmmm – who were the very first reviewers of it? People like Mossberg at the WSJ, Pogue at the NYT, Engadget etc. – I don’t tend to think of any of them as anything less than unbiased and very capable reviewers.

Silly argument on what ad you’d create for Windows Mobile = yeah, sure that part of my post was a little silly – something lots of us do when writing I think. I do believe it is hard to make a good ad for WM right now though. Have to say, yours would not sell me at all. The Q9??? It doesn;t even stand up well against other WM devices, and is made by a company that by all accounts is about to fade out of the smartphone manufacturing game. And with a screen that looks the size of a postage stamp compared to the iPhone.

I’ve said this before in other comment threads with you, but maybe you’ve forgotten. I am very, very far away from the general description of an Apple fanboy. Last time I used a Mac was over a decade ago. I own *zero* other Apple products apart from the iPhone. I run Windows PCs, work as an IT consultant in all Windows environments. Have owned and liked Windows Mobile devices for near enough 10 years and still own two of them. I even own a Zune, and have never owned an iPod. So your fanboy comments are way off base. And if you’re happy throwing the term around when it makes no sense at all, then let’s hear your side of the fanboy equation. How many non Windows Mobile devices do you own, or have you owned over the years? How many Mac computers? What material is your house made of when you throw that stone???

I’d have to say again after reading your comment, that the real hype factor in this debate, the real spin, is much more from your side. You seriously reckon the iPhone’ success is largely based on hype and marketing, and all those who love it are just fanboys or those who have somehow been brainwashed by the hype. Now that’s silly. Check the satisfaction ratings for the iPhone, even among business users *before* it even has any Exchange support. Check its huge market share already. And again, most of all, check the *usage* stats – in other words, behold how much people love using the thing.

My ‘make your WM ad’ challenge might have been a little on the silly and half-joking side, but your argument that this is all about hype and fanboys, is just plain nonsense. If you’re going to paint me as an iPhone or Apple fanboy then God help Windows Mobile …

Honestly, I can say that AT LEAST 2 of those very reviewers have been very heavily classified in the fanboy department…

You are not the market for “my” ad. See with your arguments you don’t seem to step back and look. You are an iPhone fan all the way and are an early adopter with the willingness to buy expensive phones.

It is the 95% of consumers out there that make up the real untapped market that wouldnt pay $400 for a phone, a lot of the later Razr adopters and the other millions on Free and cheap feature phones. Sorry the Q9 screen is plenty big(ger) and the phone is cool compared to what they’ve been using.. And $300 cheaper than the iPhone…!! Oh, the maker also made my Razr that I love… And it does all of that!!! Hmmmm….

And like Ive said before, if you are the owner and daily poster of iPhone information on your own iPhone site, you do fit the Fanboy bill. I never said you were an ‘Apple’ Fanboy, but you have to admit you are above normal iPhone Fan. In every conversation instead of comparing things to the whole market you strictly go back to iPhone, and while Doug and others will post about WM or other OS’s your posts somehow always revert back around iPhone… I currently have a Palm Treo 650, Palm Zire, Palm M100, Palm Tungsten E, and then a Q, Treo 700wx, Axim X5, X30, Axim X50v, iPaq, iPod, Sansa, and 2 Dell development machines, well… You get the drift… AND I will probably soon own a Mac and a Touch simply for iPhone development…

But boy do you take offense to being called out for being iPhone fanboy-ish…I will ADMIT right now that I have been WM fanboy-ish in the past and even to an extent now.. But I also step back and see the bigger picture and am very “learned” in Economics and Busines…

And as I sure to mention in all my posts its a good cool phone so no in no way do I attribute every iPhone buyer to somehow be a fanboy. But Apple does have more than its fair share of Fanboys and it does turn a lot of people into ‘iPhone Drones’ which surprisingly is what my Birdsoft Blog I wrote last night was all about, before you even posted this. Its not directed at you at all, but at the people especially on sites like Engadget that take it to an even worse extreme its almost comical…

You just need to lighten up a bit… You have a cool phone!!

Which two of those are you classing as fanboys then? They all have pretty strong reputations, as far as I’m aware.
On prices and huge market that won’t pay $400 for a phone – fine, but the iPhone is in the smartphone market, as you know, not the feature-phone market you’re talking about. In the smartphone market there are a whole lot of people who will and do pay $400 for a phone, and quite a bit more – because quite a bit more is what a Tilt, or an N95, or several other leading iPhone competitors cost.
OK, so I run another site devoted to the iPhone. Yes, true. And you’re a Windows Mobile developer. You’ve just said all my posts somehow always revert back to the iPhone. I will NOT take that lightly, because it is 100% false. Here’s a link to my last 10 or so posts on JAMM:
http://tinyurl.com/ytytj8
This one is the only one focused on the iPhone. There is also one on the list about Apple’s choice to charge iPod Touch users for the additional productivity apps – which is extremely critical of Apple:
“Jeez – does anyone at Apple have any feet left, after all the shooting themselves in the foot they’ve been doing over recent months? First the iPhone price cut, the closed garden attitude to applications on the iPhone, then the absurd policy of charging existing iPod Touch users $20 to add 5 basic apps to the device while new buyers don’t pay anything …”
Not sure how that ties in with my ‘fanboy’ status.
I’ve run this site for nearly two years now, written plenty on Windows Mobile, Palm and general mobile topics, and still do. I’ll lighten up when you get even some of your facts straight!
Yes you’ve mentioned that the iPhone is a cool device, but bottom line is lots of you guys believe its huge success is largely down to marketing and hype. Marketing is certainly important, but that idea is just plain wrong.
The iPhone product itself is great. Not good, not a little bit better, but great. Hardware design was revolutionary, multitouch is revolutionary and many are trying to copy it. Putting a full desktop OS in a smartphone was unheard of. And so on.
The product needs to be excellent first and foremost. That’s what you guys are missing.
You could have thrown a zillion dollars at marketing WinMo the last 5 years, and it would not change the fact that the product itself is not great, is not loved by users, is not user friendly. The design and function of the product itself absolutely do not stand up to the iPhone. No amount of great marketing would have or will change that.

LOL!

Anyway, The fact of the matter is the iPhone has had more money probably by Ten Fold spent on it than any other Mobile Phone. And with this a larger audience is exposed to the “Smartphone” market and it is converting a lot of the higher end feature phone audience to join the “Smartphone” Market.

The existing Smartphone market is and has been locked down by the carrier/ manufacturer relationship and is not the BIG DEAL. Now Apple using marketing, their carrier strongarming deals, and a cool device is shaking this up.

Which is what WM would have done too if they “throw a zillion dollars in Marketing” at it. Only they have the oppertunity to target a much lower price point with similar feature sets. They just didn’t and still don’t because there is the whole who’s responsibility is it, the OS, the Carrier, or the Manufacturer to do this Advertising. So nobody did it effectively…..

Apple inked a crazy deal and gets a cut of everything, so… They have a clear path to do this advertising, and Boy have they taken advantage of it!

But you seem to be implying a lot more into what “you guys” believe, than we actually believe in order to try and make your arguments.

I AGREE with you its a COOL phone, and its REFINED, its got some GREAT NEW FEATURES, and it usage and satisfaction are all important to sell phones too! But whether you are ever going to admit it or not Apple spent a buttload on Marketing to get where they are..!!

And its a MAJOR piece of the puzzle!!

Back to Economics and Marketing 101….

birdsoft-

Whether you like it or not…
whether you name-call or not…
whether you end with sniping statements like “back to econ 101″ or not…
the fact is-

a huge number of people who buy the iPhone buy it because they had a chance to handle one, be it at an Apple Store, ATT or one a friend owns. After HANDLING it they buy- not because of slick marketing or cool ads. In fact, that is one of the big differences here- to a large degree, at least for a huge number of people, the device sells itself. Sure, the ads don’t hurt but that isn;’t what is selling them.

Want proof? Look at the huge percentage of people who weeks and months after buying it rate it so highly. Purchases based on advertising are often purchases that later carry a significant degree of buyer’s remorse. That is anything but the case here.

Me, I have no problem being called a fan-boy. I love using Apple products. In fact, I resisted the iPhone for the first few months BECAUSE I didn’t like the hype, the slickness etc. Then I spent some time with a friend’s and the rest is history. It wasn’t marketing it was the devices.

I enjoy the folks here at JAMM because they are all over the spectrum when it comes to their devices of choice. And because they know how to have a heated discussion without it turning nasty.

@Birdsoft –

First off, I’m glad to see you’re considering getting into iPhone/Touch developement. I hope it works out well for you.

I’m one of those folks you can definitely point the finger at and call a “growing into an iPhone fanboy”. I’m fairly defensive of the iPhone/Touch – but from my perspective they deserve it. I’ll also admit I told myself the day I first heard about the iPhone that I was buying one. I am not however an Apple Fanboy. I’m a Systems engineer who makes a living on Windows Server, AIX, Solaris and RHEL. My desire for the iPhone way back then was from a couple experiences with prior Apple products – and a knowledge that if Steve Jobs was getting into the mobile market, it had a good chance to be a game changing device. The man is not known for releasing “more of the same” devices, and I knew he wouldn’t waste the time coming out with something everyone else was already doing.

I’m not going to profess to be a marketing guy or a business guy for that matter so I can’t tell you how much money WinMo has had dumped into marketing, nor can I say how much Apple has put into it. I know I’ve seen more iPhone commercials than WinMo commercials … so that tells me Apple is hitting it harder. But I do stand by my statement above that no matter how much money you throw at marketing a product – if it sucks its not going to sell for long. Again – I’m not a business major, but if something sucks, people are going to make sure that its well known that it sucks. Marketing can do a lot of things but it can’t keep a horrible product selling like a rock star. And, if you read our site very often, you’ll also know that if something sucks, I’m usually the first to stand up and say so.

Anyway, the initial sales and maybe a good percentage of the following sales through until now are due to marketing, but a lot of it is also positive experience and word of mouth. I personally know of a couple people who have asked me directly about my iPhone … used it for a short while, and ended up buying one. Why? Because of my glowing response and how much they liked using it. They balked at the price (as we all did) but using the device and knowing how much I loved it helped them justify the price.

Since the price drop, I’ve made almost a complete switch the iPhone. I’m looking to developers (like you) to help me make the switch 100% come June. I still own a couple WinMo devices (SDA and 8525) that are sitting at home, and over the past couple years I have used a fairly large collection of WM devices from Axims to BlackJacks & Treo 750s. I swore by them and WinMo, and defended them heavily during that time … until I used the iPhone for a while. Last week I went back to Windows Mobile for 1 day. That’s all it took for me to know that I’m not going back until there’s some MAJOR changes to the OS. I’m not talking changes to the devices, sizes or anything else – the OS. 1 day. Halfway through that day I wanted my iPhone back in hand so bad I was like a crackberry user during a RIM outage. (There was nothing wrong with the iPhone … see my invisibleShield review).

Anyway, Looking at your current list of devices, I see you don’t own and iPhone/Touch yet, so I can fully understand your current perspective that marketing is the driving force behind the iPhone. But, I think if you go out (as you were planning) and get one, approach it with an open mind, you’ll see my perspective as well. A perspective that while marketing may have launched and carried the device for a little while its not all marketing. Its a quality device that right now is above and beyond anything else on the market as far as user satisfaction, stability and useability.

Just use one. Then you’ll know

Haven’t name called unless you call “fanboy” a name in which case I called myself that too… I did throw in a snipe though only after being attacked very negatively twice. I believe Patrick’s defensive tone turned nasty long before mine ever did!!! I guess I dont have as negative a conotation on “Fanboy” as you both seem to.

The fact is that the reason a LOT of those people are in that Apple Store to handle that device is because of Marketing!!!!

The buyer’s remorse is in fact very untrue, it is only true with an inferior product, which I never said iPhone is. Its the opposite. (Though there were also a LOT of iPhone returns after launch as well)

But for the 3rd time, I agree that the iPhone’s usability helps “sell itself” as well. You are absolutely right!! I am not saying the quality of the device is not a MAJOR piece of the Selling game as well.

But I will agree to disagree, which is the point of the original post. iPhone users and fans will push to ‘glorify’ their device, it is only natural. While others will look and see that the iPhone has had greater initial success than other Mobile Phones, and a major difference between it and any other Smartphone in the past, is the Marketing and Advertising machine that is Apple…

There have been great products that didn’t sell because no one knew about them, likewise there have been bad products that have oversold do to great advertising. Now combine a very good product with very good marketing… Well that’s all “We” are saying.

Apple, I would suggest pulling all of your advertising as your phone will sell itself. You are wasting Milions…?!

I guess the fact that they are doing it at all proves ‘our’ point more than anything I can say…

Sorry if you somehow misread something and were offended. Take the tone you think you hear and dial it back to how Im really writing this this time…

See it feels like the arguments are defending against our opinion being it is ALL about marketing. But I dont think ANYONE on “our” side has said that…. And maybe we are implying that you think that it really has nothing to do with advertising, which is the stance that Patrick seems to be pushing, but maybe he/you are not….

As I think Ive stated in I think every post, The device is also a big reason why it is selling.

And nope, I havent purchased one yet, but I have spent several hours on a friend’s Touch. I do not live and travel in locations where At&t is a viable choice, so I am one of the millions that going with 1 carrier locked out of getting one. But my impressions of it were its great, but not for me. I would truthfully rather use a Q9 or hopefully a 800w. I dont like the typing on the iPhone and the lack of customization unless I want to risk trusting hacks. So please Palm take a 750 and make it thinner, give it 320×320, wifi, bluetooth, gps, and enough speed/memory/battery and Im in. I will take WM with Mobile Shell and XA over the iPhone in a heartbeat… Now once some good applications come out maybe that will change!!

Birdsoft – I’m not going to put smileys and LOL at the beginning of a comment, because I feel you’ve been well out of order above, and I’m not going to pretend to ‘lighten up’ or laugh it off either.
The debate back and forth on whether the iPhone’s success is down to great marketing and hype is fine, and interesting, and I enjoy a good debate.
But … you’ve accused me of writing all my posts with an iPhone slant. That is *bullshit* and it’s a very cheap shot.
This will be the first time I’ve descended to swearing in the comments here, but I have no qualms about it because I honestly feel that accusation is WAY out of line. I put a ton of effort into this site, my heart and soul at various times since we started it. Part of the reason I opened a second site was exactly so that I wouldn’t bore readers here with ‘oh the iPhone is wonderful’ on a regular basis.
I will NOT accept your cheap shot accusation, and I will not f***ing laugh it off either, as I’m sure you wouldn’t if I said your software’s code was pirated.

No, see you read into that, and went into some big proof showing your posts on the front of the site. Im talking about the conversations Ive been involved in with you, in which you ALWAYS talk about iPhone and dont bring up anything else, unless you are slamming it as you did above again about Windows Mobile(lets see your exact quote about WM was “that the product itself is not great, is not loved by users, is not user friendly.”).

You sir are the one that is not paying attention and now have crossed the line with something that is very very true and easily provable. You want me to dig up your other comments. I brought this up last time too… You really crave to be painted Neutral, but you really dont back it up.

Now I wont turn to swearing as really, you have taken small statements and blown them out of proportion. BUT IT IS VERY TRUE AND NOT EVEN SOMETHING TO SWEAR ABOUT, IN EVERY CONVERSATION I HAVE BEEN IN WITH YOU I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO STAY CIVIL AND YOU HAVE SHOWN iPHONE FAVORITISM. AND YOU WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER AS A SITE MODERATOR THAN TO TAKE SOMETHING OUT OF CONTEXT AND PERSONALLY AND IMMEDIATELY ATTACK BACK!! Now I assume you are young and so I totally understand this, but….

And the fact is, I like that there are iPhone Fans here… and Nokia, Palm, WM, BB…. It very cool. But this wasnt even a conversation about WM vs iPhone, yet you turned it into that…

And nope, the pirated thing won’t bother me. It is!! But not by me… I have the source code to prove that fact….And your posts to prove my other one!

So please… now who has been nasty… the ‘LOL’ was simply to avoid pointing out your total lack of respect for WM which you claim to be Neutral or for and other inaccuracies in your post…. It was my way of censoring to stay civil.. Obviously you do not have that censor yet.

Im sorry you dont follow my posts and writing…. I will avoid writing in your posts to avoiod any future confusion.

You said posts, not comments. You said all my posts come back to a focus on the iPhone, and that’s what I responded to, and you know that – and your ducking and diving doesn’t change it. Now you say in all our conversations – huh??? How many have we had, maybe two maximum – and I brought up the iPhone in those because it was absolutely relevant to the conversation.
All your over the top everything capitalized blather is also pretty weak. I’ve been as civil as you have in past conversations. I’m not a ‘site moderator’, as this isn’t a forum site. I’m the site founder and a writer here – never claimed to be a moderator, and I’ll say again I have no qualms about attacking back because you took this to another level with unfair accusations.
My history at this site shows I’m not all about being an iPhone fanboy.
As for your last comment on not being able to follow your posts, and your previous snide remarks about business and economics 101, here’s my simple reaction: You’re an arrogant tosser.
At every stage of all our conversations, you’ve taken things to a stupid level. So yeah, sounds good to me if you want to stop commenting and piss right off …

Please, don’t let Apple vs. Microsoft cause this kind of battles. Apple and Microsoft are competitors, both trying to sell their devices to consumers, who pay those companies money and then ENJOY the products they bought. Appls vs. Microsoft is business competition, not war, and in my opinion consumers shouldn’t get into verbal wars over it.
Point out pros and cons, fine, but don´t let the discussion be about who is being uncivil or who started something or anything like that.

Because then it´s no longer about technology, and the reason I visit this site and the comments is because I enjoy the technology discussions, not because if the discussion that I see developing here. This is just not “relevant to my interests”, to quote one of the famous lolcats. Which means I’ve just wasted several minutes of my life, and am now wasting several other to hopefully prevent things like this for the future.

Also, it´s no longer about competing spirit, but more into the ‘battle’ scene. Didn’t we buy our WM/iPhone devices to enjoy them? Then why should we fight about it? The first “M” in JAMM stands for MOBILE, so if Apple enters the Mobile market and becomes popular among the technology public, it’s only logical that a site that is aimed at Mobile stuff also posts about the iPhone and the contrast between WM/iPhone functionality/success/cost/software/usability/etc.

On the other hand, I don’t have an iPhone and don’t plan on getting one soon, so I’m very glad that Patrick created another blog for the true iPhone content, so that I can find things that I like here: WM articles, news, reviews, and stuff that is important to the WM scene. Because that stuff IS “relevant to my interests”.

I haven’t read all the replies here simply because it’s so much text, and the tone of the last few replies already made clear that this kind of discussion is not my reason for coming to JAMM. Forum moderators would say “please do these things through PM or e-mail”, since it doesn’t look pretty on such a great website.

Patrick, I enjoy JAMM every day and many other people do, so I’m grateful to you for starting this site.
Birdsoft, I’ve enjoyed your comments in the past about the WM/iPhone discussion, so it would be sad to see you leave JAMM.
The mobile world is not a religious thing, please stay friendly and ENJOY technology.

Thank you.

@ Birdy, I know you’re working in a vacuum, but you have completely missed the point, I think.

There was actually one issue, did marketing make the iPhone a success, and is that why WINmo is out of favour. You have not shown a knowledge of the iPhone or Touch, that really makes any thing that you have said viable, but you have been great on telling people they don’t know enough about what they are talking about and are biased.

You have shot your credibility, and your apps credibility, in one short thread

I could edit this whole comment thread but,

You’ve done yourself a disservice.

SPM thanks

Yes I apologize for any behaviour and misunderstanding that have came to this.

In my mind “posts” and “comments” are the same thing. In my mind site owners should be the biggest moderators. In my mind this wasnt actually ever about WM vs iPhone. It was simply making a point about advertising that was somehow skewed because I chose to point out that I feel Patrick by his comments shows he has a bias towards iPhone, one in which I guess he’s not comfortable owning since he does also still have a WM heavy site. But I guess that should have been implied and left alone. I honestly tried to steer away from the “conflict” and back on topic in my later posts to avoid further confusion. Unfortunately I was not left to do that..

I apologize for that and if any of you feel I was the one that took this to the lower level I will own that as well and say sorry. This really should be about “Mobile” and my belief that Marketing is in fact a major part of the reason iPhone is where it is. And I really think Steve Jobs would agree with me on that.

Thanks.

Thanks for taking it this way.

@ marketing – all I know is that when I see an iPhone advertisement, I clearly see that it’s an iPhone and the advertisements really make the picture stand out. Simply showing the product works in this case. However, when WM devices are advertised, we see specs, details, etc along with the image. Therefore, the image has to be smaller in order to make things fit, and a large image is better than a small image, I think. Also, I occasionaly see Pocket PC devices with a Smartphone Home screen! That’s just aweful, it makes things look messy, while the iPhone ads are often clear.

On the other hand, I’m very happy we also have the blogs that tell us that iPhone 1.0 didn’t have 3rd party app support, and that iPhone 2.0 doesn’t have multitasking. Adds are great, but also cover up the weak points of a product.

What I think basically is that the iPhone is a big and accessible step forward for mobile phone users, and fills a gap between mobile phones and Pocket PC’s. Therefore, it can benefit from both the mobile phone public as the PPC community. Windows Mobile, on the other hand, is a bit too distant from the Nokia/Samsung/etc public which makes it harder to reach those people.
I think that if people see a WM device, they think “Ah, that’s an expensive device for business people, that’s not my category”, not knowing that with a little effort they can do great things with it. But when they see an iPhone, they think “Ah, that’s also an expensive device, but it has cool things for me and I can operate it with easy!”.

Once again SPM steps in and brings back reality. Thanks SPM … that’s one of the reasons we love ya! Of course if this was an SPB vs. SBSH argument he’d be all over it

I’m going to take this back one step (and hopefully not in a bad way) and touch on the marketing again. I do recall something being marketed to the ends of the earth to the point of being marketed ad nauseum here in Colorado … and that was the Samsung BlackJack on AT&T. The ads were excellent showing WinMo in action playing music and doing some other core functions. They boosted my desire to get the device – which I did the day it launched. I think this is another great example (along with the iPhone) where something was heavily marketed, but ultimately continued to sell not because of marketing but because it was a solid device that functioned really well. I personally pointed a few people (in and out of the AT&T store) to the BlackJack because I was that much of a fan of the device.

The BlackJack was originally all about marketing, but continued strong sales based upon the merits of the device and I think the Moto Q (and its newer siblings) is another device that continues to sell based upon merit.

Now look at the T-Mobile Wing. Marketed quit a bit (at least here in Colorado), reviewed all over the place and generally hailed as garbage by everyone who tried it. Still a WinMo device, but unstable and generally just slow. And it doesn’t sell well… despite being one of only 3 WinMo devices T-Mobile sells. Its still eclipsed by the Dash and the newer Shadow.

All in all – I’m standing by my convictions. Marketing can only carry something so far. I don’t care if its an Apple product, A WinMo device or any other product – if it sucks it won’t continue to do well, and the T-Mo Wing is a great example of that.

@SPM, thanks, as always, for your comments.

@Brandon. I agree with you. Marketing gets the ball rolling. Eventually, the device has to sink or fail on its own. And you are right, the Blackjack ads were great. But if I remember, they never really drew a connection to Windows Mobile (I could be remembering that wrong). But it seems like it made a big deal about Blackjack as a device, but never really said anything about the fact that WinMo was the OS. That is where WinMo needs to do better. They have a real marketing problem in that their OS is not in any way related to the hardware manufacturer. With Blackberry, the original Palm, Nokia, and the iPhone, the hardware and software are linked. You buy a Nokia phone, you get the Symbian OS. You buy a Blackberry, you get Blackberry OS. WinMo is the only one that is detached in this way. I think that is a real problem for them in terms of getting name recognition for the OS. I don’t see anyone going to the carriers and saying, I want a Windows Mobile phone. They might says, I saw a cool ad for the Blackjack. But as far as they are concerned, it might as well be the Blackjack interface. When you say windows, no one thinks of pocket computers. When you say Blackberry, that is all they think of.

Doug

You know, I became more modest in the SBSH/Spb discussions. I’ve grown to the view that both make very useful software, and the consumer should just decide which points determine what developer he wants to give his money to. After winning in the contest here I can pick up some Spb stuff, so that will allow me to get to know Spb products without trial limitation. I’ve grown into the SBSH community so much that I won’t switch to an all Spb layout quickly, but Mobile Shell can help me, or if their brain game is fun – why not?

On marketing, I think you’re right, and we can actually say it with only a few sentences. Marketing GREATLY helps bringing products to people, and money to developers. That’s why it’s called marketing, and that’s why it’s invented in the first place. But if the product doesn’t answer to the marketing promises, there’s a risk of “counter-marketing” arising among the public, which decreases the effect of the marketing. So can’t it just be summarized like this:
So good product + good marketing = succes;
Good product + bad marketing = not so succesfull, might get more succesfull after positive reception from the public;
Bad product + good marketing = might be succesfull, with the risk of disappointed and complaining users, and decreasing sales;
Bad product + bad marketing = hard times for the developer.

My comment above was a response to Brandon.

@ Doug – do you think WM would be more succesfull if it only was distributed on one device (or 3, one with QWERTY slideout keyboard, one without, and one with normal mobile phone number pad)?
That way, people would identify WM better.
It’s a bit scary to think into that direction because we all love to be able to pick the device with the feature/price ratio that is best for us, but maybe if MS would have taken this direction in the first place, WM would be knows better?

(I have totally no idea about this, I wonder if I even had a regular mobile phone when the first PPC was made)

@Brandon: I too completely agree with everything you said.

An interesting point that can be made with your Blackjack story, is that when effectively marketing a good product it also has the added benefit of indirect marketing. A reason your friends bought that phone was because of you, but the reason you bought that phone was because of the marketing you saw… So it can be argued that the reason your friends bought those devices is linked to that same advertising as well. Obviously it is more linked to your user experience and opinion but you would not have those opinions without the phone.

@Doug: Yes, I was just talking to some old friends and said I now do Windows Mobile development. Very Blank looks… And they are the feature-phone consumers that eventually will graduate to Smartphone level…I hope with WM7 and re-targetting at the mass consumers we see a new level of marketing and education… PLEASE… iPhone is doing that right!!

@spm: The equations look right on.

@SPM, yup, your math looks about right to me.

No, I am not suggesting that WinMo needs to be limited to certain handsets or anything like that. My point is that MS needs to regain control from start to finish. They need to be involved in the process. They need to rebuild name recognition. They need to get people to walk into stores and say, “I want a Windows Mobile device.”

There just seems to be a complete disconnect right now between Windows Mobile and the marketplace.

Doug

Again, on the button Doug, I can only reiterate it, ” Windows Mobile, what’s that?” is a phrase burned into my ear drums, seems users are a rare breed, and windows mobile devices are disassociated with/from mobile phones as such. Most people want a phone that makes phone calls and send text, and is easy to use. Even Nokia gets that right, from their most basic to advanced models. The inclusion of a mobile computing solution is lost upon many!